Assembling a Billion Polygons in Real-Time, with Epic Games' Marc Petit

July 07, 2020 00:31:58
Assembling a Billion Polygons in Real-Time, with Epic Games' Marc Petit
XR for Business
Assembling a Billion Polygons in Real-Time, with Epic Games' Marc Petit

Jul 07 2020 | 00:31:58


Show Notes

With the next generation of Playstation set to hit shelves this holiday season, the big news in the gaming circuit is the revelation of Unreal Engine 5. But this game engine is good for more than just the next top video game experience. Unreal Engine manager Marc Petit explains the many other use cases this technology promises.

Alan: Hey, everyone, Alan Smithson here. Today, we're speaking with Marc Petit, general manager of Unreal Engine at Epic Games. If you're not familiar with Epic Games, ask your kids. They're probably playing a video game built on their development engine. For example, Fortnite is built by them. We'll be discussing the myriad ways 3D and XR can be used for organizations. And of course, what's coming up with Unreal Engine 5? All that more on the XR for Business podcast.

I am super excited and thrilled to invite Marc Petit on the show. Marc, welcome to the show.

Marc: Well, thanks for having me, Alan, and thanks for the introduction.

Alan: It's my absolute pleasure. This has been one of those episodes that I've been really excited. And I don't want to hear myself talk anymore, so please tell us, what is Unreal Engine, and how is it being is now OK?

Marc: Well, that's a pretty broad topic. So first of all, maybe we'll go back to the basics. What is a game engine? A game engine is a piece of software, it does a lot of things in real time. What is a game? I mean, a game is everything about a simulated world and a story mixed together. So what a game engine do, they can provide you with real time simulated worlds and/or stories. It's based on complex technology, like real time rendering and rules and physics. But at the end of the day, you can be and interact with the virtual world. And I think that's all XR is about, is empowering and connecting the virtual and the real. So game engine, we're kind of the-- think of it as an operating system for visual development. That's the software on which you can build a game like Fortnite, or you can build a car configurator. So where this lower layer of software comes as a bunch of tools.

Alan: One of the basic things that people misunderstand is that 3D is a little bit different than creating a PowerPoint deck. There's a lot more to it involved, you're rendering many more things all at once.

Marc: Yeah, no, absolutely. Again, think of it of a simulated world. I mean, good 3D, things react when you interact with them. And so you have-- somebody has to go and program those multiple layers of artificial intelligence to bring the right look and also the right behavior of things in the virtual world. So what the game engine does it makes this process very easy, makes it a cross-platform. It's a very, very involved and complex piece of technology. But for users, it's pretty simple to use and that's all we are about: making that process much, much simpler for everybody.

Alan: So one of the things that you guys just released is a video showing the new PlayStation 5 running the Unreal Engine, and the demo was -- and I'll quote -- there's billions of polygons running. I think we start with, what's a "polygon" and why is that important to be able to push so much data? And how does that pertain to a business? How would a business use that then?

Marc: Polygons and triangles, this is how we present 3D geometry in the virtual space. It's basically a way to represent the virtual world inside a computer. And why having billions matter is, if you look at the current generation of technology, Unreal Engine 4, you can get some amazing results, some photorealistic results for cars, and for buildings, and for factories. We use Unreal Engine 4 to teach to autonomous car about the real world. I mean, our representation is-- have enough fidelity that we can teach a robot about the real world using the game engine technology. But to be honest, that comes with a price. It's pretty complex to create the content for the game engine. And what Unreal Engine 5 is about is you will be able to use the data that you actually have available, without preparing it. We call this process data prep. It's very boring, it's very long. To have the real time, people today have to bake lighting, they have to bake things, they have to simplify things. And really what we wanted to do with Unreal Engine 5 give you a game engine that's going to give you interactive performance. It's going to give you this real time performance with the geometry, with the data that you have. Should it be a Lidar scan of your facility, of your factory? Should it be a CAD model of the objects you want to manipulate? Should it be a GIS database of the terrain that you want to use? So we built up some very sophisticated technology, so we can process data of arbitrary complexity. And again, the benefits for the user is just like no more preparation of data. Just drop what you had in the engine, it's going to work in real time. So that's a lot of engineering that we've been doing over the past two or three years, to fine-tune this technology.

Alan: So you mentioned a few things I want. I want to unwrap each of these, because I think it's vital. So people who are new to this: first of all, go to and just take a look. Just stand in the home page and look. It's just stunning. Iy'd like, you're just sitting and watching these beautiful graphics. And some are video games, some are car renderings. There's all sorts of things. But you mentioned GIS data and CAD data and Lidar data. These are all-- these have nothing to do with games, typically. And yet you're able to ingest these and use them. So how are people using these types of data formats, for product design or-- what are they using them for?

Marc: So currently, what people do in the enterprise space, you have to come back to visual communication. It's a lot of what we do. But making process more efficient in the enterprise is sharing visuals and communicating. Right now 2D visuals or videos is kind of the preferred medium. But these medium heavily mutation, if you see a video of a building, you cannot interact with the building. A video is not like a walkthrough. Or if you want to train somebody on-- take the example of training. I mean, that's an industry that's been completely revolutionized by real time 3D and by VR. Because now suddenly you can interact with the objects, you can cognitively so much easier to learn when you can do it immersively with a VR headset. That's beautiful. So real time 3D is the next form of communication after video. It's a form of video that's interactive, where you can navigate within it, and you can interact with the objects. So everywhere you currently using text and video inside the enterprise, you will one day have the opportunity to use real time 3D. And that's what game engine gives you, it's real time, 3D enterprise. Look at the automotive industry right now, and what we do in the process. So, of course, we use game engine technology to validate design, and to get a project that is greenlit; say, "Look at this beautiful car." So before, up until a few years back, you were using offline rendering technology. I mean, we haven't invented CG, we've been using CG for 20 years in the industry, but it used to take an overnight render to see a 30 seconds video of a car, to show to your management team. With a game engine, you can actually let the management team interact with the car, open the door, rotate the car around, so that they can see and understand the design much better already when before the product exist. Those technology really help you make decisions on product that do not exist yet. Then again, you should look at the adoption of game engine technology in the automotive industry. The next thing we'll do is we'll be part of the design, because we do a lot of HMI, the Human-Machine Interface. The language and the visuals of video game is exactly the right technology to interact with a complex object, like a vehicle. And so we do a lot of design of user interfaces, and the whole experience of the car is now built with the game engine, so that when you touch a screen in the car, you get something that looks and behave like you would expect today, which is the pinnacle of high level graphics at Epic Games. So not only we help design the product and validate the product, we are part of the product. And then when the product gets built on the manufacturing line, you have a lot of training involved. You put new tools in place. So that's really content that you have about the car. You can use it to the manufacturing process, to train people. You can do corroborative design reviews. You can actually do meeting in VR, is routinely using our technology to validate all of your manufacturing processes. And again, this is a visual communication tool to support normal decision making. And also in automotive was interesting is we're completely transforming the way cars are sold. We use car configurator in concession online, and it's known that we have sold more accessory, or it helps to sell cars that actually are not on the parking lot of the dealer. If you take the latest car launch that we supported, like the Corvette C8, or the Tesla Model Y or the Cybertruck, or a number of other cars. Tesla and GM were able to offer virtual test drives, and start to make money with the car before they actually were rolling off the assembly line. So that communication tool is actually very important in marketing. It's also true for apartments in the real estate space. So you can see that you can apply real time 3D, and this is kind of a high visualization tool every way through the lifecycle of the product. And so the data that we were mentioning, like the CAD data, the PLM data, the BIM data, the GIS, all of those acronyms, these are the natural form of the 3D data that you currently find at the enterprise. So what we do is a game engine -- like Unreal Engine 5 -- will be able to basically considerably simplify the process of creating communication with this data.

Alan: Yeah, no, absolutely. So the interesting pattern with everybody using this technology is that the assets that you're building -- the car or the apartment -- they can be reused and repurposed. Because once you've built this asset, it's not like a static video where you build a video and if you have an error, you have to rerecord the whole video or re-edit it. You can use these assets for multiple things. You can use it as a design collaboration. And once the design is locked in, then it goes to production. You can take that same exact asset that you designed, and make it available as a training tool to train your sales staff. And then you can take that exact same training tool, and make it available for your buyers to make better buying decisions. So it's almost like this kind of magic tool that people haven't-- or the majority of people in the world have maybe experienced a little bit of, but is not really truly pervasive. What do you see as kind of the next step to making this so that every business in the world just says, "Yeah, we have to have this, it makes sense."

Marc: I mean, the next step is to reduce the cost and the complexity. And this is what we're trying to do with Unreal Engine 5. But I think you're right. I mean, what you're describing is what people call "digital twin." It's the fact that when you build something in the real world, you should build the same thing in the virtual world and make it part of the deliverables. I mean, it's true of a building, it's true of a car. And then right now, the offerings of digital twin in industry, they're a kind of offshoot of the legacy systems. And what really is different with game engine is the real time component, and the fact that real time brings interactivity. And the fact it's a game engine, you have support for all platform, you can run the same software on a tablet, in VR, in AR, you can run the same model and the same data on the same software in all of those platform. In the cloud. We do a lot of cloud streaming now directly of interactive content. So for me -- and of course, a very biased opinion from the game engine maker -- I think game engine technology is the right technology to implement digital twins. The value of this digital data for the enterprise is gigantic, and I think people are starting to learn that. I can give you an example in construction. We work with some construction companies. They have understood that you even make the digital version of the building part of what you sell to the customer. Throughout the lifecycle of the building, you can show your customer where you are in the process. You can show the model designed by the architects. And then the model made by the construction company is not the same. The architects only cared about the look of things. Now you have to have a more sophisticated model, that capture how you're going to build and the process of building the building. And then once the building is complete, you can actually-- the building is a living and breathing element. In it you do asset management, every door has an asset tag. It has a lot of systems, HVAC systems, all of systems, through IOT, are connected very easily. Your construction model becomes your reference from which you build, and it becomes truly stocked when you connect it to the data of the building, and so you can visualize all about your building in real time. That should be part of what you deliver to your customers. Not only you deliver the real building, but you deliver digital twin, which is a management tool. And you don't deliver just to tag assets or database of switches. You can make it a 3D interactive version of your building. It's not science fiction. And we do have customers that start committing to the delivery of digital twins.

Alan: The fact that everything is real time, and that you can make a change in one part of the world and have it reflect real time with the other participants. I mean, the easiest thing I've seen on this is that my daughter has Fortnite on her phone, and all her friends play on different devices. Some are playing on computers, some are playing on iPads, some are playing on phones, but they can all play together. And I would assume it's that simple for businesses, as well, to get in there with whatever device they happen to have, get in and interact with each other. One thing that's on here that kind of blew my mind was the work being done in the film and television industry using Unreal. And it's something that you don't think about. You're like, "OK, why would a real time game engine be used for Hollywood movies?"

Yeah, I think-- if you roll back the clock. We were lucky enough that we got involved with Jon Favreau on The Mandalorian very early in the process. And really when they came to us, "We want to do this TV show for Disney+. And we have half of the budget of a Star Wars movie, but we want to do eight hours of content." The way to achieve this was to basically use real time technologies and create-- what is expensive in movie making is the post-production. And you have to shoot on a green screen, and then you have to go off and get rid of the green pixels and put the virtual world, and look at it, "OK. This is not there." And you're iterating very slowly. What Jon Favreau wanted is -- because he had exposure to gaming technology in the Lion King project -- he said, "Can you give me a system where I can see in the camera what I'm going to get?" And so we created for him this immersive environment with our partner ILM. It was a 55' stage full of wraparound screens; many, many LCD screens, and a ceiling full of screens as well. So that would display the content and the environment of The Mandalorian on those screen. And then they would basically be used as a background, and they would be used also to light.

Alan: Ah, yes. So you would have the real time reflections, and oh! Super cool!

Marc: So no more greenscreen.

Alan: And then how did you track the cameras, then?

Marc: We use camera tracking techniques.

Alan: Because you would have to track the camera, in order for the parallax of the back screen to work, right?

Marc: Yeah. I mean, look, there was a little bit of development to be done, but we basically do it, and we call this "in-camera visual effects." So they were able onstage to have the actors stand there. Some of the sets were physical, some of the set set were virtual. We give them the tool to match perspective between the physical and the real. And then they were able to do a lot of shots without using these expensive post-production process that the film industry relies upon. As we speak, we have many, many projects to build those stages. We worked on HBO's Westworld as well. This is becoming mainstream, especially in post-COVID times. Think of it as bringing the location to the talent, instead of flying the talent to the location. Think about car advertising. Why would you send a crew to the beach to do this kind of commercial on the beach, if you can bring the beach and a bunch of screens and keep the car in Detroit?

Alan: Well, I mean, come on. There is always a reason to go to the beach.

Marc: Yeah. The agency creative director likes to go to Fiji for the shoot, but--

Alan: "We've got to fly everybody to Fiji for the week!" [laughs]

Marc: [chuckles] Yeah.

Alan: So let's talk numbers and cents. Talk about cost savings here. This is just one simple example: not having to fly a film crew to Fiji to film a car ad on a beach. That's got to be thousands and thousands of dollars in savings. Like, what are some of the ROI numbers that people are seeing using this technology?

Marc: It's hard to quantify. I mean, when trouble is involved is-- if you look at the math behind The Mandalorian, it was significant, because eight hours of content for a hundred million. Those numbers are not public, but I think I read that somewhere in the press. That's half the price of a two hour movie, Star Wars movie -- which is north of $200-million -- with virtually no sacrifice on the creative front. I think not having to do real prototypes in the industry, whether it's automative -- we work with Boeing, we work with Airbus -- the ROI is pretty obvious, looking through COVID. A game engine is not only real time graphics and real time physics, but it's also multi-user at the core. When you play Fortnite, it's 100 people. We did the Travis Scott concert recently, we had 12.3 million people watching the concert at the same time in the game.

Alan: No big deal. Only 12 million people at the same time watching-- and not only watching, but interacting with the environment. That was insane, by the way.

Marc: Yeah. I mean, even for us, it was mind-boggling. But that multi-user capability, which is not very common in desktop software. Today as we speak, you can fire up Unreal Engine. You could be firing up Unreal Engine in Toronto, I'm in Carey, North Carolina. We could be working together on the same model, because that multi-user editing is there for everybody. People do film scouting. They do design reviews. They do a lot of collaboration during COVID from the comfort of their home, using the built in multi-user capabilities of game engine. And that is priceless, that ability for people to work and share. Again, visual communication. Humans, we're visual animals. So when you can see buildings, when you can see parts, when you can see objects, when you can visualize processes, it's really, really good value. Back to construction. I mean, we've worked with Gilbane there. They do hundreds of simulation for a year, just to solve some very basic problem. Is the crane going to go through, or how I'm going to do this? But the fact they can get everybody on the same page, because they all look interactively at that simulation and they can look on PC, on just be connected to the cloud, or on a tablet. They can all participate into this work session, they can see "Oh, you're going to do this? I'm good with it. OK, that's fine. We're good. Let's go and do it." That technology is really, really interesting. Let's be honest. Today, it's a pretty involved process. And we tried to make it as simple as possible with the current generation of tool. But that's why we invented Unreal Engine 5, so that we make this process really simple, as of next year, so that we eliminate all of that overhead of preparing the data.

Alan: Let me just put a pencil in this, because if people haven't watched the Unreal Engine 5 demo video, I will link it in the website, it will be there, because it is... Holy crap. First of all, you're showing off the PS5. I don't know what kind of magic they put in there, but the video you guys showed is just like-- I don't even know what to say. It's just mind-boggling. Take a minute to watch that. But I think the question I want to ask is, when did it become obvious that your game engine was useful for more than just games?

Marc: I used to run the Majenta division of Autodesk, so I was building the legacy -- not real time -- tools for visualization in the film and TV industry, and I joined Epic in 2016. At the time, for me it was like, "Oh my God, they're going to make it." That's why I joined. But I think it's really over the past 18 months that we've proved, we've showed it's strong enough. We've been running all of automotive marketing now. It's hard for me to think about a car launch today that doesn't have Unreal Engine based configurator. We have a half a million users in the architectural space, all the way to landscape designers and SketchUp users. SketchUp is a very, very simple tool to create 3D content for interior designers. We have a lot of those users. They use game engine technology. So I think it's really took off over the past two years. We worked hard to make the technology accessible. Not only you have Unreal Engine, but I would call out-- we created a tool called Twinmotion, that is like-- think about PowerPoint for 3D content, something that's very, very easy to use. We use game mechanics to automate a lot of processes, so that we make it easy. If you want to play and learn, or if you want your kids to learn how to create this kind of content, Fortnite has a mode where you can create your own island, create your own games. And it's also very, very easy. So we have the three levels if you want to tap into the power of that real time 3D. Fortnite Creative, consumer grade. Twinmotion, really easy to use. And then Unreal Engine, which is kind of the tools of the pro. We'll do so much more. I mean, the other thing that makes me very hopeful about the future, where we can make this technology widely accessible is AI. We know there are two things. One thing is the cloud, and the other thing is AI. So the cloud is because it's-- right now, if you want to consume interactive content, you kind of have to know which device you're going to use it on. So the game industry is used to manage, this is a game for Switch, this is a game for PS4. But in the enterprise, I mean, you want to create content that's consumed by any device. So the cloud is the way that you make the experience predictable for everybody, by either using cloud streaming or-- we do a very, very nice 3D cloud based platform -- like MetaVRse, not to mention it -- which complements Unreal Engine very well. The other thing is going to make this content much more accessible -- once we figure out the delivery through the cloud -- is going to be this technology called photogrammetry, and the fact that it's very easy, using pictures, to recreate 3D model of the real world. One of our division is called Quixel, they have this product called Megascans. And basically the idea is to scan enough of the world, then with machine learning you can recreate the rest. So we're not going to scan all the rocks in the world, but we're going to scan enough of the rocks in the world, so that with machine learning, we can create all the rocks in the world. That's true of cities. That's gonna be true of everything that God created, like nature, trees, and landscape, and environments, and biomes. So we're creating all of the content that will allow you to basically create those very, very sophisticated imagery virtually, very, very low cost. So once we figure out ways to create photorealistic content using AI, we can use AI to lower the cost. The other aspect of AI is we use AI to take an asset -- something that's photorealistic -- and stylize it, put an art direction on top of it. This process can be automated. Today, if you want to add a tree in Fortnite, we still build it by hand. But tomorrow, we'll be able to kind of Fortnite-ify your tree by running a machine learning algorithm on top of it, so that once we explain the creative direction that we want, we'll be able to to stylize assets automatically.

Alan: It's like that photo-- it's like Prisma.

Marc: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's like filters. It's like Instagram filters. That's why I would say to your listener, you need to start considering it, because it's not science fiction anymore. Cloud distribution of interactive content, 5G edge networks are on the horizon. We're starting to get decent devices for AR and VR. We have Unreal Engine 5 around the corner, it's going to cut the costs of all the data prep. And then we're going to have databases and technology bringing the real world into the virtual space very easily. So I think the past two years have been impressive in terms of adoption, but I think the next two years are going to be even more. And COVID has accelerated that, because it made everything about our lives digital overnight. Therefore, everybody is testing and learning. And remote collaboration is a huge plus in interactive 3D technology. It's actually more efficient than Zoom, believe it or not.

Alan: We actually just released the XR Resource Collaboration Guide. It's at And what we realized is that with COVID and the ability to have these tools to collaborate, there was no real central resource for which tools to use when, and what devices do you need, and if I have half my team on iPads and half of them on here, how do I do it? So we put together this pretty comprehensive resource guide as a partnership with Accenture, Qualcomm and Deutsche Telekom. And there's over 100 tools that allow you to collaborate. And some of them are built on Unity, others are built on Unreal. But for the most part, you have these amazing tools out there and it's really an adoption issue, because the tools exist.

Marc: Yep.

Alan: One of the reasons why I started this podcast is how do we get this information out to the broader business community?

Marc: Yeah. I'd like to say a word about a topic that's very important for us at Epic Games is the necessity for open platform. As you say, XR technologies, and even if you call it the MetaVRse, we strongly believe this is around the corner of this ability to work, and collaborate, and entertain, and communicate in a digital virtual world in 3D. One thing we've learned about the mobile space is if we let people build walled garden and limit the connectivity between the platforms, like you cannot Facetime between an Android and Apple device. It's very important that we create that 3D digital realities as an open space, as an open world, and support open standards. Sometimes you get a device and you have to only have the application that come to the store with that device. But that's really something that is not going to help us.

Alan: And it's not going to help anybody. In the end of the day, if half of your staff have an iPhone, the other half of an Android, some people have PCS, some people have Macs. We already have a bifurcation of all of these. And right now there is a bit of a problem with 3D models not being standardized. And so what are you guys doing to help that? Because if I'm a business, the last thing I want to deal with is, "Okay, I need this model for this thing, and this model for this. And I need to build it over here for this."

Marc: I think we need to throw all of our collective voice behind the open source community. If you look at every one of them as the vertical limit, you kind of always have to choose between keeping your data hostage of the vendor – likely a CAD vendor -- or use open source formatting. I mean, we have sPickle, a rising format in the architectural space. We have USD in the world of entertainment. And in the world of simulation, there's a lot of USD being used. We have Cesium for GIS. I think that's really... we have Open XR, to do device-independent XR. So I think we, as a citizen of the environment has to be more demanding of our vendors. And I think we've tried to show the way in that. I could tell you what we do on the game side, in terms of open platform. But it's very important that we keep the data open and we let people compete on merit and not by erecting business barrier again. Mobile ecosystem and we all suffering from those walled garden. For example, in games, what we're doing is we have this system on Fortnite, it was the first game where an Xbox player could play with a PlayStation player, before it was not even conceivable. And the way you do this -- and we have not created a uniform idea -- but on our systems, you can log in with a Microsoft account, or log in with a Sony account, log in with a Nintendo account, and you can see your friends on Fortnite. You could be a PlayStation guy, I'm a Switch guy, we could play together.

Alan: That is what really opened that up, by the way. My daughter, she's got an iPhone and she was playing Fortnite with her friends on an iPhone. I mean, it's a little laggy, but she was able to communicate with her friends and have conversations. And not everybody has a console game. Not everybody's got a PC. It's so great the fact that it's opened up to the world. And I think you guys are really pushing the limits with that.

Marc: Actually, we just released Epic Online Services, all of that cross-platform goodness, so that you can create games that connect on all the seven platforms that we support. That is available for free to the entire gaming industry. We kind of want to talk in terms of being open, to make sure that we make those services available. It's a bunch of sourcing right now on Amazon, it doesn't cost us much. We're happy to, and it's such a strong statement towards an open ecosystem. So it's very important to us. And I think we've learned is to cover more and more of our life, our digital space. And so as citizen, is becoming much more important. There is much more at stake to have our digital platform as open and as transparent as possible on data collection, and on privacy, and on what they cost.

Alan: Now, on that note, Marc, what problem in the world do you want to see solved using XR technologies?

Marc: Communication. I mean, this is our technologies and interactive content. This is a right we want to communicate with each other in shared spaces, using content that is interactive. You remember how we were all amazed when we see this video with-- the video on YouTube, they were swiping on a magazine? Pinching on the magazine and wondering why the image would not zoom like the iPad.

Alan: Yep.

Marc: I think the next generation is going to be the same. They won't be able to accept content that you cannot interact with. Videos is never going to be enough for visual communication, and for exchanging ideas, or exchanging stories, or creating emotional or engaging content. I think XR is the new form of media for me.

Alan: When do you think we will see 3D on websites be as pervasive as we see videos now?

Marc: You know, when I started in 2016, I told myself this is gonna be a 10 year journey, and I have to pace myself to make real time 3D, interactive 3D a thing in the day to day life. Now, I believe it's gonna be sooner than this. At the consumer level, consumer businesses have problems with scaling, manufacturing devices. We're not there in the consumer space. But we are there with with XR in the enterprise today. And I think the cloud, we owe it to the computer manufacturer, Intel, Nvidia, AMD. They're doing amazing progress, bringing us to compute that we need. And I think we're about to have the low latency network with 5G. So let's talk again in two or three years. But I think we will have made a lot of progress. And I think COVID -- and again, the sudden digitalization of our lives -- is going to accelerate this even more, because a lot of things that were taboo two months ago, that have been routine now.

Alan: Well, is there any last things you want to say before we wrap this up? This has been a fantastic interview. Thank you so much, Marc.

Marc: You're welcome, Alan. As I said, it's a long game, where the promise of XR and real time 3D interactive content is there. It's obvious. Today there are limitations, so when people start to deploy it again, we have to go step by step, crawl, walk, run. This technology is going to be hugely important in the next two, three years. Now is the time to invest. But as usual, with modest expectations and a gradual approach. But I think it's the return on investment for everybody, I think, is going to be huge. Patience.

Alan: Patience, indeed.

Marc: Patience and pacing is critical to be successful in that.

Alan: We're going to go from the phone to the face in the next 10 years. Could be five. Could be three. Could be seven. Who knows? But in the next 10, that's a given. So what can we do now to drive value now while we train the world on how to build 3D spatial content?

Marc: I think you're absolutely right.

Alan: Marc Petit, general manager of Unreal Engine at Epic Games. Thank you, everyone, for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe button. Every week we come up with a new episode, so make sure you don't miss any episodes. Marc, again, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you, everyone, for listening.

Marc: Thank you, Alan.

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