Getting Fit with a VR Toolkit, and Other XR Tips with VRdōjō’s Michael Eichenseer

We talk a lot about the business use cases of XR on this podcast, but any good business comes with a great fitness plan or exercise room. XR is no different, and VRdōjō founder Michael Eichenseer runs Alan through a few of the cardiovascular benefits to the technology.

And that’s just the first six minutes! Many other topics are touched on in this episode – virtual writing spaces, remote assistance, spatial learning, his own XR makerspace, and more.

Alan: Welcome to the show, Michael, how are you doing? Pretty good. How are you? Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. It’s going to be a really exciting one. Let’s tell everybody at home. What is your vision for virtual augmented reality? Was the best virtual reality or a AR experience is what is the best thing that you have done? And explain to the listeners why that is so.

Michael: For me, it’s definitely the fitness aspect of VR. As a gamer, I definitely enjoy the fact that I can play a game, not be sitting the entire time, and afterwards, I’ve burnt 500 calories, and feel really good about it the next day. The research coming out in XR in reducing pain and increasing motivation, to me, is fascinating.

Alan: There was a lot of medical use cases coming up in pain reduction, using virtual reality for pre-surgical — and also perisurgical — where you’re wearing a headset to distract you. I know one of the things that blows my mind is, my daughter, she’s 10 and she is terrified of needles. Like, we’re talking blood-curdling screams from the nurse’s office. The next time she goes, we’re gonna use VR to try to distract her while they take blood, because it’s a stressful thing. And when somebody goes into a surgery, being able to decrease their stress; it’s hard to measure the success outcomes, but at the same time, just being able to calm them is something that I think VR does really naturally. You talked about exercising in VR. Give us some examples of some of the ways people are using VR to exercise.

Michael: The boxing games are pretty popular, and I definitely have to mention Beat Saber. That’s probably the top one at the moment.

Alan: Basically, you have two lightsabers in your hands, and you’ve got to swipe up and down, and left and right, with your left and right hand, and dodge out of the way of things. It is incredible.

Michael: It’s dancing.

Alan: Dancing and disco, and it’s so good.

Michael: Yes, it’s really good. You kind of lose track of time. I think that’s why it’s good that it’s based on music; the song ends and you’re like, “oh, back to reality a little bit.”.

Alan: Yeah, there’s a guy who was playing, he lost 45 pounds playing Beat Saber.

Michael: Yes. I’ve actually met a 68-year-old retiree who logs into VR every morning at 5:00 a.m., just to warm up for the day.

Alan: That’s incredible. What does he play? What does he do?

Michael: Back when I met him, we were playing a game called Smash Box Arena. It’s a multiplayer game, kind of dodgeball. It’s defunct now, but there’s a lot of other games like that. I think Rec Room is probably the number one out there, where you can hop in — it’s a free game — and it’s cross-platform and you see people in there at all times of the day.

Alan: I’ve played paintball in there. It was a lot of fun.

Michael: Yep. That’s the game I actually play competitively. That’s kind of my workout every day.

Alan: I’m so terrible at it. What are the tricks? You gotta bounce from place to place, and it’s just… it’s crazy.

Michael: Well, I think the trick is the same with anything: Practice makes perfect. Playing with people who challenge your skill set.

Alan: Speaking of that, talk to us a little bit about how you’re challenging young minds and people who are passionate in the space through your maker space, VRdōjō. You are the voice of virtual reality in the Midwest. I can imagine that there’s a huge hub of VR in Kansas City. Maybe speak to us about what’s happening locally; what you’re doing to bring that hub together?

Michael: I’m not sure if I’m the voice. I definitely hope I’m helping. But my aim with VR… VR, to me, can happen anywhere. And as much as I’m very happy that the coasts are innovating as much as they are, I think there’s a huge opportunity here in the Midwest. There’s a lot of talent here, and I have heard from other people that even places like Kansas City actually have quite a bit of VR happening — and I say VR, I mean XR, AR; all of it. There’s a lot of, for example, architectural firms in town, and they aren’t as flashy as a virtual sports or something, but they’re all using VR for showing the buildings, or going to a client and saying, “hey, would you like this room moved over here? Would you like this equipment coming through this wall, or that wall?” I think it’s use cases like that — that aren’t necessarily flashy and public-facing — that a lot of companies are using today. And I think in the next couple of years, everyone’s just going to be using XR, and we’re going to wonder, “woah, woah, where did that come from?”

Alan: In my last interview, we were talking about 2019 as that year where it goes from, “you’re doing VR — you’re ahead of the game, you’re a future company,” to, “you’re not using VR? What’s wrong with you?”

Michael: Yeah, exactly. And one of the… I don’t know how many names I should name, but there’s definitely a large company here in KC that uses VR for training employees. One example is retail employees. They actually build virtual versions of their stores, and they might actually do that when the store is not built yet. It might be two months out before the store’s built, but they want to hire their people two months early and give them two months of what’s essentially hands-on training before their physical store even exists.

Alan: So what company is that?

Michael: I don’t know if I can say.

Alan: okay. Maybe make an introduction; we’ll have them on the show. They can talk about what they’re doing and how it’s working. I would love that. Everybody’s getting this interest in, “what can this technology do for my business? How can I use it?” And we’ve talked about… just in this very short, six-minute conversation that we’ve been in here, you’ve talked about VR being used for design, and for previsualization, and for training in retail. You were talking about exercise and fitness. There’s so many. Personally, I think there’s no facet of human communication that we won’t be touched by these technologies. Where do you see the path forward for companies? How do they get involved?

Michael: I guess I’d say if you’re a business, and you aren’t at least thinking about XR in some facet? You’re already behind.

Alan: That’s a pretty bold statement.

Michael: Yep. [Laughs]. The last place I worked was a fast casual food chain. I worked at their technology headquarters, and we did technology training for the employees. I started working on VR versions of things, so they could reach in and grab the cables that they would have to unplug and plug in, essentially saving the IT techs time on the phone by training the employees as how to run their cafés.

Alan: Wow. It sounds like a small thing, but when you consider the cost to send an IT person out there just to plug something in that could have been done simply, and I think one of the other things that people really haven’t fully grasped is the see-what-I-see. or remote assistance; being able to hold up your phone, show the person on the other end what you’re looking at, and have them annotate on it. That alone is saving millions of dollars right now.

Michael: It reduces stress. One of the biggest things of being an IT support person is your stress because you’re sitting in a cubicle all day. They’re stressed because they’re dealing with customers, and technology isn’t necessarily their #1 thing — that’s why they’re calling you. If you can give them this, literally hands-on, “hey, take it out here. Plug it in there.” And it’s not you trying to explain to them over the phone. That’s a huge reduction in stress. Not to mention, like you said, the reduction in travel is a huge reduction in cost. And it starts out with a small conversations. But over the course of a year, I can’t even imagine what the savings are for almost any-sized company.

Alan: My last interview was talking about how Boeing is using it, and these big enterprises are using it pretty much everywhere now. They’ve realized the potential. And when you start to see 25 to 35 to 40 percent reductions in times it takes for people to learn, but also reduction of error rates across the enterprise? I mean, the last few years have been really funny, that people have been, “so what are other people doing, and what’s their ROI, and how are they measuring success?” And it’s been really hard because — as a developer — you’re like, “well, I don’t know. We just make this stuff, and there’s not very many people doing it, and we really don’t know the ROI yet.” But I think we’ve kind of — in the last two years — put a lot of POCs, a lot of effort, into building these demos and proofs of concepts, developing these trials. And now, the data coming back is way better than anybody could have ever imagined. So it’s not a matter of, “hey, let’s do a POC!” It’s like, “let’s roll this out, because we already know it works. Here’s the numbers that other people are seeing. Let’s go.”

Michael: I think VR is already here. XR. All of it. I spent some time at a free-roam VR arcade — I help out there — and 90 percent of the people that come in have never even touched VR before. And they’re not even gamers; they’re just there to do something on the weekend. And when they leave, they’re like, “holy crap, I did not know it was this far

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.” And I tell all of them, the groundwork for XR has been laid for decades. There was just a few key technologies that needed to be fixed, and those technologies exist now. The only thing that’s lacking is a design sense, because we just haven’t been designing for it. When it comes to capabilities, it’s already there. There’s no reason not to dive in, in my opinion.

Alan: The costs have come down dramatically, even. You look back when commercial VR launched in 2016, and you needed a $1,500 graphics card… combine that with a computer… then the headset; you’re at three grand before you even start. Then you needed software, and the software didn’t exist yet, so you had to make it. A company getting in 3 years ago would have spent a couple hundred thousand dollars just to build something that — by today’s standards — was kind of obsolete. But if you look at where we are right now, a lot of those problems have been solved. We even have headsets that are standalone. Everything’s built into the headset. You don’t even need a computer. You’re absolutely right, that the groundwork of XR has taken decades. But we’re — right now — in the point where it’s ready to scale.

Michael: And this is why I’ve been working on starting this dojo, or this VR maker space; because the tools for building — there’s VRTK for Unity… there’s just all these tools. Amazon Sumerian. You can dive in and start building for VR with almost a $300 laptop and an Oculus Go. You can be less than a thousand dollars in and create something usable; something that can actually change the bottom line for your company.

Alan: There’s VR where you can make the full thing in computer graphics, but there’s also 360 videos; being able to capture a training experience in 360 video, and then add computer graphics on top of that. And then there’s companies like STRIVR, who are doing this exact thing for Walmart and football teams and other brands. I think just something so simple as a 360 video — which is very easy to capture now, the cameras are under $5,000, and that’s for 8k cameras — and then being able to overlay the data that you need. And the next generation of headsets that will come out in the next 24 months will all have eye tracking and head tracking. So, you know where people are looking; you can really get an incredible amount of data back from the headsets, as well as deliver the content to the viewer. So what are some of the most impressive business cases that you’ve seen so far?

Michael: Most impressive business cases, I think, go back to training. As I said, the fact that you can have your store — that’s not even built yet — and have, by time that store opens, a team of associates that literally know everything — they know all the product details, they know how to interact with various types of customers, where every product is kept, where the extras are kept in back — and maybe they only stepped into that store yesterday.

Alan: Yeah, that’s a pretty incredible thing, to be able to train people on things that don’t exist. One of my previous interviews was talking about… Neutral Digital! They were talking about how the airlines are using VR to show people planes that don’t exist yet. “Here’s the airplanes of the future, and here’s what we’re gonna do, and here’s the first class cabin,” you book your ticket. But then, they’re also able to take that same asset, and then train the staff on the airplane that’s coming in a couple of years, so that when the plane is delivered, you don’t have to waste a second of ground time — because for every day that you ground a plane, it’s $100,000. Being able to do that is incredible.

Michael: Yeah. Most definitely. And going back a step, you don’t even have to get that crazy with your technology to use this. One of my previous jobs — the one where I was building those immersive trainings — we were using Adobe Captivate, which is a pretty standard training software, where you make essentially interactive power points that save quiz data and such to a swarm database. Whatever learning management system your company uses, and you can throw together a training in about 10 minutes. One of the features they recently added is 360 photos or videos, and then making those interactive, and it’s just as simple as point and click. But to your point, that’s sometimes all you need. You talked about these 8k cameras, or the 360 cameras. But I went into one of the cafes with my smartphone — and yeah, it takes a little longer — but I took a 360 photo just standing there, being the tripod, and uploaded it and made a little training, and sent it to my director of technology. I was like, “hey, look, this is what we can do today.”

Alan: Wow, that’s incredible. With a smartphone. It’s incredible. The technology path is moving so fast that if you’d said, “hey, we want to make a five-minute training thing” three years ago, you would have to print the 3D mounts for the cameras, and go out there, film it, stitch it. Two weeks later, you’d have the rough draft, and then, “you wanted to put some CGI in there? Oh, yeah. There’s another three weeks of work.” The tools that are popping up are really democratizing virtual and augmented reality creation, and I think that’s what’s really exciting. So, what are some of the tools that you’ve seen used really effectively to create this content?

Michael: It would depend on your use case. Is it marketing? Is it training? Unity is always my top one. As someone who grew up as a game designer and player, I definitely side towards Unity. I think that the tools that they have are incredible. And if you’re going for full-immersive, Virtual Reality Tool Kit is an open source tool kit that — out of the box — everything just works. When it comes to augmented reality, you’re gonna go more towards the marketing thing. The SNAP lenses alone are crazy. Did you recently see SNAP’s location-based augmented reality, where they’re augmenting entire buildings now? It’s incredible.

Alan: There’s been over 400,000 SNAP lenses created in the last couple years. SNAP is really the leader in augmented reality.

Michael: Yeah, I think most people that use SNAP know SNAP. They know filters. They see this cool stuff. But they actually don’t know what augmented reality is, or maybe have never even heard the term.

Alan: It’s very true. We get caught up in all the terminology; SNAP just said, “look, we do cool things with your camera.”.

Michael: Yes. And that’s all it takes.

Alan: Yeah. You can try on glasses. You can see a car in your living room. You can light up the Eiffel Tower. It’s really interesting, what those guys are doing. And they also announced voice-driven AR activations as well. So you can talk to it.

Michael: Yes. Yeah. Audio Augmented is another whole can of worms.

Alan: Absolutely. You were saying that you captured 360 photos from your phone, and then were able to create a very simple training exercise just from the smartphone.

Michael: Yeah, and that was all built in. I mean, the credit goes to Adobe for sure, for having the stuff built into their technology already today. I’ve actually been working with Silka Miesnieks. She’s head of emerging technologies over at Adobe, and the things they’re working on are incredible. One thing she’s trying to put together is something called the sensory design group. Something I’ve mentioned — a couple of times, now — is when it comes to the technology for AR/VR/XR, the technology’s here. The tools are here. Now it’s a matter of, we need to get in and actually use it. And they’re trying to establish a list of design rules to kind of help further that process.

Alan: Adobe is introducing all sorts of tools left and right. One of their announcements the other day was this amazing ability to create 3D objects and 3D products, and then have the back end to source and serve them up for programmatic ads on Facebook, on Google. 3D on Web is really becoming prevalent as well. We’re past that point of, “hey, can we make this work?” Then it’s, “yes, we can make it work; how can we use it?” And now it’s, “we can use it. We made it work. Now, what are the limits of which we can push this technology in?” One of my last interviews was with Anthony Vitillo, or Skarred Ghost. We were talking about haptics, and how haptic vests and gloves can be used across enterprise for simulation of training, but also scent machines, and different spatial audio and things. So how do you see the different senses being brought into virtual and augmented reality?

Michael: One of the biggest things that got me interested in spatial computing to begin with was my own research into neuroscience, and the fact that our brains are wired to remember spatial information. If you ever heard of “memory palaces,” it’s an old technique they used to use back in the days of Greek and Rome to remember anything. Now, it’s kind of seen as just a fun thing to do; it can set your shopping list up in a 3-D representation of your house in your head. But that’s where spatial computing to me is so amazing, is that it’s keying in on something that we’ve kind of ignored for years in a literature-based society — we’re all about written words and numbers. But now with spatial computing, we’ve opened up an entire new three-dimensional palette for training, memorization, etc. And our brains were built to live in a three-dimensional world, and now we can reach out and change this world not only visually, but also — as you’re saying — once we have these haptic technologies, you can actually change the way we experience the world through audio and feeling.

Alan: It’s going to be really incredible, what’s coming. I got the chance to use the Ultra Haptics,

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is this device where it uses ultrasonic waves to give you the sense of touch. And then there was another one, where I tried to put these sensors on my finger, and I reached into a fire and I felt like it burned me. I jumped back. I’ve got to try this thing called Vasco, which is a scent machine that mounts to the bottom of your VR headset that you can program — so, you program in Unity or Unreal. I reached out, grab a cup of coffee. I smelled it, smelled like coffee. You go and you look at the grass; it smells like grass. So, the ability to create scents, in addition to haptics and the visuals, (obviously), and then the audio. This is really, really an exciting time to be in the space, because there’s so many different aspects of it. You just have to find what works for you. I think it can be very overwhelming for businesses. What would you recommend for a business getting in now, and how do they get to real ROI or real business use cases, without getting caught up in the minutia of all of this stuff? Because it’s easy to go down rabbit holes in this technology. What advice would you give for businesses looking to get in this, to stay really useful for them, rather than get caught in these rabbit holes?

Michael: There’s definitely a lot of answers, but given how easy it is to dive in, if you have the resources, I would say: get it one headset, and get yourself a — whether it’s Unity, whether it’s Sumerian, whatever it is — and whoever the techiest person is, have them try some stuff. Think, “what’s the one thing we could train people with using VR?” Or better yet, maybe marketing. “What can we put in a headset that… maybe our sales guy could take this Oculus, go with him in a suitcase when he goes on these sales meetings, and actually show people the thing we’re building in full three dimensions.” Let them reach out and touch it. Diving in in that way, I think, is the way to go. That being said, because it’s so easy to dive in, there are a lot of studios popping up everywhere that are very eager to help companies get into this space. I see XR right now as the IT revolution that hit businesses in the last couple of decades. I worked at a steel mill one time, and that was the backend of the IT wave was hitting that place, and that was an industrial complex in the middle of nowhere, Arkansas. So XR is hitting that wave right now, where it’s going to transform all businesses; either dive in with the team you have — if you have the resources. If you don’t have the resources internally, definitely be seeking out some of these studios. Call out to them and say, “hey, we’d love to at least talk to you about your thoughts on how you think XR could help our business.” Talk to somebody who thinks about these things daily, like perhaps yourself. And I’m sure you could come up with ideas for most any business.

Alan: For the last few years, we have literally done work in countless industries, from mining, to food service, to hospitality, travel, tourism, training, education, schools, seniors homes. And the result is always the same. Everybody loves it, but it’s really creating those business use cases around that. And because we’ve done so many things, it’s a little overwhelming to us as well, because we can’t be everything to everybody. But at the same time, it’s given us an incredible breadth of knowledge that I think is really valuable to our customers. When they come to us and say, “we have this problem we want solved,” we can look at it from a very objective standpoint — “this is the solution that works best for your needs” — and is not tied to any one company. We’re not tied to Microsoft. We’re not tied to Magic Leap. We’re not tied to Intel. We just know what the best solutions are across the different industries. And bring those to customers is the key, because there’s so much noise out there, and there’s so many different solutions. It’s easy to get overwhelmed. And if you bring in a studio who is really good at 360 video, guess what they’re going to sell you. They’re going to sell you 360 video. So I think it’s important to also understand that different studios do different things, and you really need to focus on a strategy. So, thank you for pointing that out.

Michael: Yeah, I think that guys like us that have been thinking about XR for the last few years, it’s very easy for us to come up with use cases. I think the best thing about XR is the worst thing about XR, and it’s that it can literally change everything. And to your point, it’s hard to pick, “what do we use it for?” Because the truth is, pick anything, and the answer will be, “we can figure out a way to use it.”

Alan: That’s the problem! We used to have a tagline: “We do eVRything.” It’s great to do everything, but it’s really hard to focus on those things. We’re about to make a pretty big announcement, and it will allow us to continue doing everything, but in a different way; one that will serve a far greater community of people and businesses. So, pretty excited about that. What do you see as the future of XR, and what is the future as it pertains to business? What do you see coming up in the future that really excites you?

Michael: One of the first things that I thought about whenever I first drove into VR was productivity. As a writer, I know that can be very easy to get distracted, especially when you have three hours of writing ahead of you, or what have you. Everyone tries to find a perfect place in the quiet cabin in the woods, but there’s only so many quiet cabins in the woods. Especially when you live downtown in a busy city. Where, in a VR headset with augmented audio noise-cancelling headphones (that exist today), and perhaps a keyboard; as a writer, I could go anywhere I want. I can go to my happy place, and I can write. I also saw a dissertation a few years ago that some student did, where he showed the possibility of an in-VR workstation. So, instead of being limited to two or three or however many monitors you have these days on your desk, you could put screens in front of you, behind you, left or right, any direction. And then at different focal lengths — the human eye sees in, like, three natural focal lengths; really close up, about six feet away, and then about 50 feet in front of them. These are those three layers of natural viewpoints, and you could put screens at all three of those layers in all directions, optimizing for what information is most important. He theorized that you could increase productivity by a minimum of 30 percent, if not upwards of 80 percent, depending on the job. And even if I told you, “oh, if everyone had a VR headset at your IT company, you’ll increase productivity by 10 percent per employee,” okay, 10 percent isn’t a huge number. But 10 percent, times a 600-employee company? Well, now we’re talking. That’s what got me excited in the first place. Not to mention training, not to mention marketing, not to mention everything else. I truly believe that XR is just a new interface to technology, and therefore, it’s going to change everything.

Alan: Well, it’s interesting you said that, because one of the interviews in the podcast — you can go back and find it if you’re listening — is with the president of HTC VIVE China, Alvin Wang Graylin, and something that they just announced at their Vive Ecosystem Conference was multi-modal VR. You’re gonna be able to do exactly what you said, and bring your computer screen into VR. What they’ve also done is they’ve created the ability for you to plug your headset into your PlayStation or XBox or computer or television, and just take automatically, the information from your 2D screen into your 3D world, and make it any size. So, you could be working on an IMAX screen, rather than staring at your 13-inch MacBook. There’s other companies doing that; big screen VR, I know, is one of the killer apps right now. And one of the things that they’re doing is, they thought it was going to be more productivity. But what it turns out is a lot of people are just using it to watch movies on a really big screen. The ability to sit there, next to somebody, and have your girlfriend — who maybe is a long-distance relationship, or your friends or whatever — you can sit in the room together, have a conversation, while watching a movie on an IMAX screen. Take that to productivity? Holy crap. I cannot wait to have my 13-inch screen be an IMAX screen in front of me, so I can actually look up rather than look down while I’m working. And I think there’s going to be a lot of chiropractors out of work because of this.

Michael: Yes. Yeah. And there’s also notifications, right. Instead of the notification popping up, and I’ve got to look away or whatever? I mean, it can literally pop up between you and your screen without actually ocluding the screen behind you. And little things like that add up over time.

Alan: I agree. It’s a shame that there was one company really focused on the enterprise workstation VR, and I can’t remember what they were called, but they were really too early to the show. If they had made it past 2019, I think there would be a market for it. That leads us into where VR is right now, and AR. We’re really at that precipice of, “that’s an acceptable technology. There’s lots of businesses using it. The results are phenomenal, and the cost is being driven down to reasonable amounts.” I personally think that 2019 is the breakout year of virtual and augmented reality. What are your thoughts?

Michael: I honestly 100 percent agree.

Alan: Well all right! If you take into account the fact that, by the end of this year, there’ll be probably 20-million VR headsets in the market. PlayStation is gonna be 4.5-million sold. Oculus has sold a couple million. HTC VIVE sold a couple million. I think we’re gonna reach… not critical mass yet, with consumers, but definitely a critical mass in businesses. And combine that with the fact that there’ll be over 2-billion — with a B — smartphones that have augmented reality enabled on them right away by the end of this year? You’ve got two-billion devices that can do three-dimensional computing, and this is the tipping point.

Michael: I think a lot of people discredit the gaming side of things, right? “Oh, they’re just gamers with their gaming computers, what have you.” But the average gamer is, what, like 40 years old now? You’ve got companies like Valve who have just announced that they’re stepping into the game, and they’ve got some pretty popular IPs to say the least. Yes, it’s for gaming, but if you get all your gamers — who are probably your employees; I’m guessing most of your employees, if you’re an IT company anyway. At least your tech employees, probably — play games, or have your employees be the evangelists for this XR wave that you need to grab hold of.

Alan: I agree. I couldn’t agree more. And I think a lot of game studios are doing some kind of contract work on the side with enterprises because they have the product pipelines. They know how to build AR, they know how to build VR, and they’ve got skills to make gameified training as well. And I think that’s going to be a huge part of all of this as we move forward. One of the things that I wanted to bring up is that VR is happening, and AR is happening, everywhere in the world. Literally from Sydney, Australia to New York, L.A., everywhere in the world; whether in Silicon Valley or small town in the Midwest. This is happening everywhere. So maybe as a parting words, what are some things that you really see as the fundamentals of getting involved in this technology, especially from a business standpoint? What do you think is the first step so you can harness this power immediately?

Michael: The first step is the best thing and worst thing about spatial computing, and that is, the only way to begin understanding it is to experience it. So my #1 recommendation to any company is to, whether it’s go out and buy a headset, or if you’re the VR nerd at your company and you have a headset at home, bring it in. Clean it off, of course. But have everybody at the company take a look. Everybody put the goggles on. Everybody put the glasses on. Play a demo. A simple demo is all it takes. Whether it’s a game, or if you have an enterprise-level demo, I think that that alone will get the ball rolling.

Alan: Couldn’t agree with you more. Somebody explained it to me, “explaining VR to somebody who has never tried it is like explaining the color red to a blind person.” It is impossible. If you own a headset, your responsibility is to make sure everybody tries it. Get it on everybody’s head. I really want to thank you so much, Michael, for taking the time. Michael, Eichenseer, thank you very much.

Michael: Thanks, Alan. I’m excited to see what you’ve got cooking.

Alan: You can learn more about our guest Michael Eichenseer and VRdōjō by visiting VRDojo.org.